It’s been quite a big few weeks for elections around the world. The US midterms on Tuesday, of course, as well as the election in Israel last week, and in Serbia, where a student movement-backed and coordinated movement actually ousted the Serbian Radical Party from power.
Another big election played out in Brazil, where President Lula da Silva staged an unlikely comeback on October 25th after losing the first round of voting three weeks earlier, and students in particular played a big role in the turnaround.
So what do the next few years have in store for the Brazilian higher education sector?
Lula’s a known quantity. We know his instincts. But now he’s running a government with less money than ever to spend, and also has to deal with a distinctly unfriendly Congress. Given all that, what do we think the next few years have in store for us?
With me today is Elizabeth Balbachevsky, associate professor at the Department of Political Science at the University of São Paulo, a fellow at the Laboratory of Studies in Higher Education at Unicamp, and a former senior official in the Ministry of Higher Education in Brazil. We talk about Lula’s third term record, the election, and the threats against universities and students that happened during the runoff, and what the next four years have in store for the country.
Without further ado, here’s Elizabeth.
The World of Higher Education Podcast
Episode 5.8 | Lula’s Return and the Future of Brazilian Higher Education
Transcript
Alex Usher (AU): Elizabeth, thanks so much for joining us on the show today.
Elizabeth Balbachevsky (EB): Thank you. Thank you all for this very interesting talk about the Brazilian situation.
AU: The last time we did a big overview of Brazilian higher education was about three years ago. We had Marcelo Knobel on the show, and that was towards the start of Lula’s third term in government. And at the time, he was very hopeful that this new government would help the system make great strides.
But I know money’s been tight in Brazil for the last few years. Lula has not had the same kind of financial means that he had in his first two terms. And there’s been a lot of stop-start, you know, more money one term, less money the next you know, sort of mid-year cutbacks, those kinds of things.
In total, what do you think the achievements of the third Lula government were for higher education? Was it a good one for the sector?
EB: Yes, I think that we have an, on total, a very good developments for higher education in Brazil. Although I think the main problem is that higher education is not anymore at the top of Lula’s agenda. So there were some money for, some stops, some very interesting moves toward, let’s say, supporting students, especially students attending the public sector and things like that.
But I think that most of the issue about access to higher education in Brazil were surprisingly solved by the online education. This mean that for the government, this is not anymore a very important issue. I think in education, the central issue was the secondary education.
We have a high level of dropout from secondary education in Brazil, so I think this mobilized a lot of money from the government, by the way, because he created a kind of scholarship for the students to attend the secondary education, for poor students coming from poor families to attend secondary education.
And higher education stayed more or less the same. Without many challenges, but without many changes real changes in the Lula third term.
AU: Right. Well, you mentioned the expansion of online education. That really is a huge story in Brazil, because Brazil’s now the first country in the world to have over half of its students studying online, and that’s a really big change. Was that a government strategy, or is this private institutions selling into a new market, finding new ways to get education to students?
EB: I think that it’s a combination between the failure of a policy and a market strategy. Why? Because in the second term it was Dilma’s term, but it was the Workers’ Party government. They created a very subsidized loan program for students to attend the private sector. Well, this program didn’t last long, and when it crashed, the private sector started to tap distant education, online education as a way to sustain the students in the market, because the students really don’t, didn’t have money to pay for their education in present, in, in class.
So, at that time, that was the main issue. The problem was that with the pandemic, with the pandemic experience online education became, let’s say, nor- the Brazilian experience, I think everywhere, in all countries. So, distant education became a more acceptable way for you to have access to higher education.
And because they have the same credential, they give the same credentials, they have the same value in the labor market, the people, especially the older people, which is a great majority of the Brazilian student population in tertiary education, no? Most of our students are older than 25 years old.
They are usually around 30 years old, so they already have families, they have commitments with work and things like that. And for them, well, distance education is a, a salvation, let’s say. Okay? And the other thing I think was the public sector didn’t answer the call for work on this.
They resisted to the idea of changing their offerings to distance education, so it became a kind of market, a private enterprise, isn’t it?
AU: Got it. One of the big issues this year I’ve noted is the issue of quotas. And quotas have been very successful in Brazil in equalizing chances and certainly in bringing lower income students into those prestigious federal universities. This year the government of Santa Catarina tried to abolish them, said, “We’re not gonna have those here,” and they were quashed by the Supreme Court.
But what was that issue about? What’s the opposition to quotas, and what’s happened to that issue nationally?
EB: Well, first of all, I think that we need a correction. It was not quota itself that was abolished, what the, the government of Santa Catarina tried to abolish, but it was racial quotas. In the Brazilian law, the racial quotas is a part, is inside the quotas by itself. And this is a highly, I would say it’s settled in terms of judicial procedures, but it’s still a very contentious issue in the Brazilian society. So what the conservative governor of Santa Catarina tried to do is to eliminate the racial quotas. But he maintained the quotas for students coming from poor families, quota for people with disabilities, indigenous, and things like that.
That’s not a problem. The problem is the racial quota. And I think this is, it’s going on. I, I don’t think that it will be solved in uh, near future. Especially because now we have a much, much more conservative House of Representatives. I think that the issue will came again.
AU: Yeah. Another big story this year had to do with medical schools and exit exams. Brazil’s one of the very few countries in the world that actually requires exit exams of students, and this year, I think if I’m right, a third of the country’s medical facilities, you have about 300 medical faculties, 350 medical faculties, a third of them saw a majority of their students get a failing grade.
And as a result of that, you had a number of institutions that were prohibited from enrolling new students and others that had, you know, partial restrictions. What’s the longer term policy change that, this is doing? So obviously the short term one is we’re taking some institutions out of circulation. What are we gonna do about medical education generally? ‘Cause this is a big effect on health policy in the country.
EB: Yeah, I think so. Well, the practice of holding finishing exams for students that finish their undergraduate education is part of the tools the country use for evaluate higher education, higher education institutions perform. It’s not something that is directed to the student.
The student have no penalties if he or she fail the examinations, but the average perform of the students is part of the tools that is used to evaluate the quality of education, and this was the main idea of this examination. But now there is really a proposal law, it’s, it was not enacted, that would made this examination a need passing this examination would be considered necessary for you to have the certification for you to practice medicine.
Because, of course, there is a lot of worries in the country about the quality of medical education, isn’t it? Because, wow, you are going to give your life in the hands of this guy, and I hope that he’s well-trained to perform all the things that he’s supposed to perform.
But I think that there is not really a endpoint in these debates around the procedures for transforming this examination into a real examination of the quality of training the students receive. And by the way, we have this kind of examination for recognizing foreign diplomas, isn’t it? So, there is know-how in, in the country about how to do this examination.
AU: Elizabeth, I want to talk about the election that happened in October. Obviously higher education wasn’t a major issue in this election. But what were the differences between the two sides? I mean, I guess, you know, we know where Lula stood.
What would a Bolsonaro win have looked like, do you think? Would it have been like when his father was in power between 2018 and 2022, which was bad but survivable? Or did people think it would be more like Trump, that a second Bolsonaro term would be a…
EB: No, I think it would be easier than last Bolsonaro, because I don’t think that Bolsonaro’s son is, is strong enough as was Bolsonaro in the father. So, I don’t think that he would be able to make big changes in higher education.
And the main issue is that higher education, especially public universities in Brazil, they are more or less protected against incursions coming from the executive. For example, even under the worst scenario in Bolsonaro’s era he were not able to close any kind of graduate studies on gender, on race, any kind of you know, programs that he thought it was not good for the university to have.
And the other thing is that, well, Bolsonaro said that he wanted to change higher education from the Ministry of Education to the Ministry of Science and Technology. I think that this move could disrupt a bit, especially the policy network that supports policies in higher education. So to a certain degree, if this move would happen then the higher education would be, let’s say, a bit orphaned from the government, you know, because all the network is inside the Ministry of Education.
AU: And what was the ostensible rationale for that? Like, would it have made the system more research-focused, for instance, by putting it with science?
EB: Yes, that was his argument. But I think that one thing that you should have in mind is for, let’s say, the big majority of the Brazilian, public university is not important at all. You know, because less than 25% of our students are enrolled in the public sector in general. Inside the federal universities, the federal universities, they answer for more or less 17% of all the enrollments in higher education.
So what the people, we tend to look at higher education in Brazil from the perspective of the public sector. But if you look with the eyes of the population, of the people the main issues were regarding, well, distance education, private sector, low ones how much it would cost for you to send your son or your daughter for higher education and things like that.
And also, because we have a large majority of these students older than one would assume is the, let’s say, normal age that the student should attend higher education, for them, you know, public university is not something achievable, you know? Because public universities, they are far, they are in isolated campus. You don’t have quick access to them. So, you know, that’s the real situation.
AU: The results of the first round were a bit of a shock, and I know that right after they were announced, you know, a lot of people came out to support Lula very strongly in round two, including the National Union of Students, right? They were very, very strongly pro-Lula, and they, they tended to come out more after, you know, after the first round of voting than before.
What role did youth and students play in Lula’s comeback? And was this level of engagement expected, or was it a surprise?
EB: No, it was a surprise. It was a surprise. I think they play a very important role, not because of their movement, but because they were easily engaged in all the activities that the campaign were doing, either through the social medias on the streets, and asking people to vote for Lula, and promoting activities campaign, from the campaign and things like that.
So, they were really an army supporting Lula’s campaign. So, it was very, in this sense, they were very important.
AU: And I understand there were actually, in the last couple of weeks of the campaign, there were a number of threats made against student leaders, and indeed against universities, right? As well as a, a set of fires at a university in Pernambuco. What was the atmosphere like on campuses this last couple of weeks?
EB: Uh, I would say that many students were afraid. But on the other side, there was this electrical you know, sense that you were doing history. You were part of history. I saw many students quite happy. You know, because they were part of this campaign.
They were playing music and things like that, so it was very interesting. It was a very interesting time to be at the university and to follow the students.
AU: And did university leaders themselves feel under threat? Like, the, the, arson in, Pernambuco does seem kind of serious as an attack on, on…
EB: Yeah, but it was not a common experience everywhere, you know? I think that most of the university leaders were not so afraid. I think that in the last week especially, I think that the animals were very hard from both sides, isn’t it? Because Lula won, but he won with a very small majority, isn’t it? Uh, 51% is not a very large majority, at least in our experience. So, there is a strong opposition to Lula’s government that are still in place.
AU: So, let’s talk about that opposition for a sec. You mentioned earlier on Lula will face a Congress which is much more conservative than it used to be. How much can we expect from Lula in his fourth and presumably last term? What’s the best-case scenario for higher education over the next four years?
EB: Well, the best-case scenario is that he could have money for relaunch Reuni. Reuni was a very successful program that really changed the university profile because it supported the growth of the federal network of universities, but also supported an inland move of these universities, with campuses being created in very poor regions, so it was a really very good experience.
I think that would be the best scenario. I’m not very optimistic that this scenario could happen. But at least we are sure that we are not going to be persecuted because of our ideas, because of our values. I think that with Lula, the racial quotas are going to strength in our society.
So, I think Lula is a much better scenario than Bolsonaro for the universities, especially for the public universities.
AU: Elizabeth, maybe we’ll come back and see you in four years and find out how right you were. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
EB: Thank you. Bye-bye.
Alex Usher: And it just remains for me to thank our excellent producers, Noel Arney and Sam Pufek, and you, our readers and listeners, for joining us today. If you have any questions or comments about today’s podcast, please don’t hesitate to get in touch with us at podcast@higheredstrategy.com.
Join us next week when our guest will be Munzoul Assal. He’s a senior researcher at the Christian Michelsen Institute for Science and Intellectual Freedom in Norway, and previously a professor of social anthropology at the University of Khartoum. And he’ll be joining us to talk about the end of the Civil War and the resumption of higher education in Sudan. Bye for now.
*This podcast transcript was generated using an AI transcription service with limited editing. Please forgive any errors made through this service. Please note, the views and opinions expressed in each episode are those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect those of the podcast host and team, or our sponsors.
