In most of the world, you can count on certain features being present in higher education systems: co-education by gender, educating your best students at home, institutions complaining about funding, students complaining about funding, but one country defies most of these expectations.

In Saudi Arabia, students are still, for the most part, taught in gender segregated classes. Nearly all students receive free tuition and generous maintenance grants, and tens of thousands of top students leave the country every year at the government’s expense. Saudi Universities still complain about funding – that perhaps is the single universal constant in higher education.

Joining us on today’s episode of the World of Higher Education Podcast is Annalisa Pavan from University of Padova Italy. She’s been studying Saudi higher education for many years. In particular, the way the country’s most prestigious scholarship program, the scholarship of the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques functions. We’re going to talk a lot about how the country’s human resource development system is changing under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s leadership, and in particular, how the country is using study abroad as a tool for long-term economic development and diversification.

You can listen to the entire episode here.

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Alex Usher (AU): Annalisa, before we get into more recent matters, can you help us out a bit describing the Saudi system? I know it’s fairly new. The oldest university only dates to the late 1950s, and most institutions are less than 20 years old. It’s got a large private sector, but private can sometimes mean members of the royal family. It’s a complicated system. What do our listeners need to know before we jump into the main topic here?

Annalisa Pavan (AP): When talking about the higher education system in Saudi Arabia, first of all, at institutional level, we have to highlight that the Ministry of Higher Education was created in 1975, but after the death of King Abdullah in 2015, the Ministry of Higher Education was merged with the Ministry of Education. So, what we have now in Saudi Arabia is just one ministry of education overseeing all the educational levels. So, in terms of universities King Saud University was the first university to be opened in this part of the Arabian Peninsula in Riyadh in 1957. By 1970, in Saudi Arabia across the whole country, there were only three universities. Under King Abdullah there were many openings of new universities both public and private universities. The distinction is quite clear. Today, what we have in Saudi Arabia is what I call a multi-option education and training model. Where to date in 2023, they have 29 public universities, 14 private universities, and 24 private colleges across the country. Plus, they have several scholarship programs, both internal and external scholarship programs, of course at tertiary level. So, this is what we have today in terms of higher education. In terms of distinction between public and private universities? Private universities do, in fact, belong to the royal family? They are named after Princes and Princesses and so on. But scholarship systems work for both public and private universities. So, in this sense, there’s no distinction.

AU: I want ask you about two big ways in which the Saudi higher education system is very different from pretty much any other in the world. The first is gender and the fact the most part universities remain gender segregated. Are there prospects of that changing much in the near future?

AP: Let’s say that gender segregation doesn’t come from religion, and it doesn’t come primarily from Islam. It does come also from Islam, but it’s mainly deeply rooted in the culture where you have this gender segregation, males and females, in everyday life. In principle, and this is not unique to Saudi Arabia. In Saudi universities, we have now three co-ed universities. First of all, KAUST (King Abdullah University of Science and Technology), but KAUST is something different because it’s overseen by the Ministry of Petroleum and Minerals, it’s not with the Ministry of Education. And then of course there is the Saudi Electronic University because of its delivery modes, of course it’s co-ed. And then the big I think change was with the King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals because in 2021 they opened some courses to girls as well. I’m going to give you my very personal opinion on this very sensitive topic. Now with the larger famous Saudi vision 2030, in 2016, gender segregation virtually disappeared from Saudi society in everyday life. There were no more gender segregation rules apart from schools and universities. Just to adopt a very pragmatic approach, if opposite sexes can meet in everyday life, everywhere, what should they push the boundaries to change the situation in schools at universities for?
Of course, we could discuss and plan this topic, but in terms of organization of universities where they already had separated campuses, separated deanships, everything – why, at least for now, change things when you can meet the opposite sex everywhere in society? Yeah, of course, in terms of methodology, I think of course as a westerner, it’s better if we have boys and girls together so they can interact and think and work in a different way in classes. But for the moment in Saudi Arabia gender segregation is no more a problem. So why should people protest or take action or do anything against the situation in the campuses. Especially when, by the way, they can connect in so many ways even inside the campuses.

AU: The other big area in which I think Saudi higher education is quite different from nearly every other country is simply how generous it is to students, right? You’re not paying tuition fees in public institutions. Almost every student, as I understand it, gets a fairly substantial grant at least at public universities. I’m not sure how it works at private ones. Now in most of the rest of the world, poor student finances are blamed for students’ inability to focus on their studies and for high dropout rates. And in Saudi, none of that applies. So, does that mean that Saudi students are fully focused on their studies and are top-notch scholars? And if not, why?

AP: Of course, they are just very average students. I guess there are good students and bad students, like anywhere in the world. We have to think what how the Saudi culture and society work. We have a tribal collectivistic society and culture, where in principle, no one is left behind. Of course, there’s also a problem with the social contract in Saudi Arabia. So, grants, which are given to all university students in private and public universities are part of this social contract. So, the rulers basically provide the best possible welfare to citizens. In some cases, also to just residents in Saudi Arabia, even if they are foreigners. What they do expect in return for this generous welfare is loyalty, is acceptance of the status quo, and so this idea of pay or let’s say support at universities is just part of this big picture of welfare. So, do they need to be better or excellent students just because they are paid to attend universities? I don’t think so. This is just the way the social contact works in Saudi Arabia.

AU: That brings us to this other area here, which is another form of student assistance which is the scholarships given through the custodian of the two Oli Mosques program, which was formally known as the King Abdullah Scholarship Program. Now, this is a program which sends tens of thousands, and I think at the height when oil prices were very high, it was sending us over a hundred thousand students a year outside the country to other universities. What’s it like being in a system where the government deliberately steers its best students away from its own universities? That must cause a little bit of resentment among domestic universities, doesn’t it?

AP: Okay, so first of all, as a researcher on the scholarship programs in Saudi Arabia, I think we have to be careful with data figures, facts and figures and so on. They are tricky because these big numbers from the past also included dependents or those who travel. it’s always quite difficult to get the official figures now, and even from the past from the Ministry of Education. So, we have to rely on news and announcements. Secondly, I think we should ask Saudi students abroad and we should ask the ministry officials from the Saudi Ministry of Education how they feel about being in the system. And thirdly, we should ask cultural attachés abroad, how it feels like to be part of this system. You know what the problem is? Again, based on my experience as a researcher, it’s difficult to get the answers because they’re part of the system. They just enjoy this generosity, which is really remarkable, especially according to Western standards or European standards. It’s dreamy amounts of money. So, they are very well sponsored and at the best universities and so on, but they don’t like discussing the topic. So, we should ask them. But again, researching on scholarships would require more openness from the Saudi system which is granting these scholarships and mostly, we need transparency from the Ministry of Education, which is traditionally very conservative. There is a lot of bureaucracy, and it’s difficult to research on the topic and even with best possible intentions.

AU: I want to turn now to the document known as Vision 2030, which is an overarching policy document, which at least in theory, drives day-to-day Saudi policy. This document was launched by the current King, King Salman, and his son Mohammed bin Salman, often known as MBS several years ago in 2016. We don’t have to get into all the details here, but the overarching theme of this document expressed in different ways throughout is to spend some of the kingdom’s enormous wealth in order to diversify away from hydrocarbons and looking towards a post oil future. Now, what in theory is higher education’s role in this big transition? How does the government see the sector’s role?

AP: You said that in theory Saudi Division 2030 drives Saudi policy and I will say really in practice too. Again, as a researcher, because if you research Saudi Arabia in any aspects, now you must read and know the contents of Saudi Vision 2030, because it’s everywhere. The logo of Saudi Vision is everywhere. It inspires basically all the changes, initiatives, whatever, in Saudi Arabia now. When it comes to education, the Vision stresses, the need to make substantial investments in education and training, which is pretty naturally obviously necessary I would say, but especially the tertiary level because their overarching goal, as you said, is a diversification of Saudi economy. Basically, the country needs highly skilled Saudi youth. They need to master the best soft and hard skills. It’s better if these skills

AU: That’s explicit that they want that they want people to leave the country.

AP: Yes. The vision says that they will keep up the scholarship programs, especially the former study abroad and they state it very clearly, but also they state that they want to have more targeted scholarship programs. If they invest money in the scholarships, and they are quite expensive programs to run, they want to make sure that, first of all, they select the best students. Then they want to make sure that they select the best universities offering those programs that will meet the needs of the Saudi labor market. This is the point. And when graduates go back, they need to be employed to be part of this Vision for the diversification of the economy. What we expect is that probably, let’s say massive, or at least really important, even remarkable investments in education will continue and including at the tertiary level.

AU: You wrote a couple months ago in University World News about the Two Holy Mosques scholarship and the changing aims under Vision 2030. So specifically, what were the changes that have come into play in the last few months?

AP: There are changes at different levels. Talking about the former KASP (King Abdullah Scholarship Program), last year they announced a new strategy with the aim of spending less or spending better so to say, so we to have highly skilled employable graduates. They created a new strategy with four parts, and it’s all about fostering creativity, entrepreneurship, innovation, more qualified research culture and so on. Let’s say that we have new actors in the scholarship system in Saudi Arabia. It’s no long a job of the Ministry of Education only. We have new scholarship programs, and of course they act under the regulations and directives from the top leaders. But we have a soft of collective effort or shared responsibility in creating new scholarship programs. There are scholarship programs mainly in new ministries. For example, Ministry of Tourism, they have their own scholarships. The Ministry of Culture, Ministry of Sport, very active. They all have their training programs. Their students have new resources to be employed in their specific sectors. Then we have private sectors, and they created their scholarship programs too. They’re mainly in training programs, so the workforce in terms of quality slowly but steadily improving and growing, and many resources are being allocated and different levels. So, there are many scholarship programs. They can be internal or external. For example, I’m thinking of the Ministry of Culture, but also, for example, there are other organizations that send many students, many young people abroad to get prepared in the specific, according to specific needs of the different sectors that are being developed.

AU: What you’re saying, or what it sounds like is, although the number of students being sent abroad through the main scholarship program, the scholarship of the Two Holy Mosques were what used to be called the King Abdullah Scholarships has decreased. There’s a lot of new scholarship players, so the total number of students going abroad might be pretty similar. Is that correct?

AP: Less students in general. Hundreds in different scholarships systems and programs, hundreds per years, which is dramatically less than what we used to see in the past with the King Abdullah scholarship program. They are much more focused and targeted. They don’t want to waste money. They want to have employable young Saudis mainly, but it’s very they want to be efficient. They want to be efficient. They don’t want to waste money.

AU: The targeting aspect here is interesting, right? What it sounds like the government is saying is we think we can get more for less if we’re better at targeting. But countries around the world have spent decades trying to figure out how to steer their higher education sector and steer their students into fields of study that makes sense from the perspective of human resource planning. Why do the Saudis think they can make that work when nobody else has it?

AP: First of all, because they have that kind of social contract and students, the youth want work. They want to be employed. They need to be employed. So, the idea is, “okay we have the specific needs. We are developing these, in a way, new attractive sectors. So, you want to work in this sector, so you will be well paid, but job is not always guaranteed”. The jobs are not secured, not all the time, but the youth, like in any other country around the world, know that they need to work and they need to be skilled and they want to get prepared for these new labor market for future challenges. They are ambitious. It’s a very young nation with a a young leader. And they are very assertive on average. Okay? So, they are still able to look ahead and say, “okay, this is the best thing to do”.

AU: But let me talk about the broader theory of change here. The idea, it seems to me, and Saudi Arabia’s by no means alone in thinking this way is that they can pursue economic modernization through education. Let’s get lots of really smart kids educated here, or perhaps more likely abroad and that’s going to give us a much higher level of human capital. All the graduates with all these fantastic skills. But the problem is somebody has to be there to put those skills into action. You need firms who can employ them properly and drive real diversification. And those firms in Saudi Arabia are owned by a fairly narrow elite for the most part. There’s been diversification efforts almost nonstop for the past few decades, yet the country’s economy is still 75% oil dependent. What’s going to be different this time? What is it that might help them drive diversification now that didn’t work before?

AP: I think there are several new elements we see now in Saudi Arabia we have never seen before. First of all, we have a young leadership, and this is completely new from the past, we have a very ambitious young leadership. So the crown priest sat in an interview and said “the sky’s the limit” Can you imagine his galvanizing his people and 70% are under the age of 34. So, they are super excited in general. Things are also moving very fast. Just for example, we discussed gender mixing. So that’s huge change. Then this leadership has created new ministries, we have young ministers, they are Globetrotters, they talk to the media all the time, so something very new in terms of communication that we had never seen before. They are boosting national pride all the time. “We are one nation, we are ambitious. We are in this altogether. Our country is unique and so there’s a bright future ahead of us” and of course, they see a changing global order. Whatever we think of this thing as westerners, things are changing and they want to have a say in this new order, and they want to compete, they want to be active actor. And players, and I think they have to do the tools, sorry to take up this, view. Even these few elements provide the new situation in Saudi Arabia.

Now, I have two concerns as a researcher: when I observe as an outsider, all of this first, of course I believe that education can change a society, especially when it comes to higher education for a number of reasons. Now, when we have these Saudi graduates going back home from abroad, and of course they feel they always express gratitude towards the government because of the scholarships and they want to become part of this transformation. The problem is that they face red lines and red lines are still firmly there in Saudi Arabia. So, for example, we have PhDs entering Saudi academia. Do they enjoy academic freedom, free exchange of ideas, freedom of expression freedom to publish and say and communicate whatever they want? No, they don’t. It’s very difficult to work with a Saudi co-author. Those red lines apply to my research too, and I have to be aware of this. Okay, so this is the first problem. Second problem is that you mentioned firms and whatever, are they really employable in principle? Yes. I think we’ll see more during next few years because they are launching new scholarships on a monthly or so basis so we need to see what the outcomes are in the next two, three years or so. But again, as a researcher, I haven’t found good reliable serial research on the actual impact of past scholarships and probably in the future of new scholarships on the labor market and on society more in general. These graduates who have been exposed for years to other values and cultures go back and they could be a powerful tool of change in their society if only they didn’t have to face these red lines. So, in terms of change, it remains to be seen if they will make an impact.

By the way, another aspect is do they want to change the society? Because again, it goes back to the social contract. You are in a very good comfort zone in Saudi Arabia when you are graduate. Whichever job you decide to take up inside or outside academia, you are in this situation where you are part of this social contract. So, you want to be grateful. You want to respect the red lines. It’s more convenient, it’s safer for you. You see what I mean? So, there’s a missing link. I call it a missing link between the scholarship system and change in Saudi Arabia.

AU: Interesting. Annalisa, that’s all we have time for today. Thank you so much for being on our show.

AP: Thanks so much for your invitation for having me today. Thank you very much.

AU: Okay. It just remains for me to thank our excellent producer, Sam Pufek and Tiffany MacLennan, who would like everyone to know that while she’s off to Harvard in a couple of weeks, she will continue working on the podcast from her new haunts in Cambridge. And of course, thanks to you, the listener for tuning in. If you have any comments or suggestions for future podcasts, please contact us at podcast@higheredstrategy.com. Join us this Thursday for our final podcast of the season where my guest will be Yale University’s, Zach Bleemer. He’ll be joining us to talk about affirmative action in American College, recruiting the upcoming US Supreme Court ruling on university admissions and how institutions can con, can continue trying to improve equity outcomes no matter how the court rules. Bye for now.

*This podcast transcript was generated using an AI transcription service with limited editing. Please forgive any errors made through this service.