I’m pretty sick of the discourse around apprenticeships in Canada. But that doesn’t mean I’m against apprenticeships; quite the opposite, actually. I’d just like policy formation on the subject to revolve around something more intelligent than MOREMOREMOREWENEEDMORE.
Instead of focussing the discussion entirely around intake rates, we could be having much more productive discussions about any of the following:
1. How do we increase completion rates?
Contra most of the rhetoric you hear, Canada’s apprenticeship intake rates are pretty good – and in the skilled trades, our rates are higher than in Germany. The bigger issue is that half of all apprentices don’t complete their training within ten years of starting a program, and a significant proportion of those who do, take far more than the “four years” you see on brochures. We don’t tolerate this kind of failure rate in other forms of education – why do we tolerate it for apprenticeships?
2. Should we continue to use block-release for training?
In most countries, apprentices intersperse their learning and working on a near-daily basis. A typical situation in Germany would be to have the apprentice working on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and in class on Tuesdays and Thursdays. In large part, this day-release policy exists to ensure that the applied and theoretical parts of learning are as integrated as possible. In Canada, we do what is known as “block release” – that is, have apprentices do their learning in discrete chunks. Our system evolved partly because of climate, and partly because of government EI rules: laying off workers for a few weeks so they could get some training was both a convenient way for employers to slim payroll during the winter months, and a way for provinces to get the feds involved in financing apprenticeships. But does it make sense pedagogically? Do we get better journeypersons as a result?
3. Why do our apprenticeships take so long?
There’s virtually nowhere else in the world where apprenticeships take longer than three years. Why do ours take four, or more? Do our apprentices end up more skilled than those elsewhere, or is this just a way for businesses to pad profits by paying well-trained workers less than full rate for an extra year?
4. How do the outcomes of our apprenticeships compare to those in other countries?
This is really the key question. The number of journeypersons we have is ultimately only half the equation: all the quantity in the world doesn’t make up for a lack of quality. And we actually have some means to do this: I’d love to have someone give red seal exams to a random group of German or Dutch apprentices, and see how they do (for balance, it’d be good to have apprentices from different countries take the PIAAC test, as well).
Anyone who wants to have those discussions is welcome for a chat at HESA Towers, anytime. Anyone who wants to keep banging on tired tropes about how trades are discriminated against, and we need to encourage more students to blah blah blah, I have but two words: do better.
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The apprenticeship “system” does not work because there is no supply side and therefore no market. Any undergraduate labour economics student knows that employers will not finance general skills, yet that is precisely what apprentices are acquiring … skills that are valued by many different employers. So we expect employers to engage in apprenticeship training out of a moral obligation. We would not expect an employer to pay someone’s way through a Bachelor’s degree in psychology. Why do we expect them to fund apprenticeship in HVAC?
A high school student wanting to go to college or university can apply in a matter of an hour with a few clicks of a mouse on a computer. She can then expect her mailbox to quickly fill up with fancy brochures, invitations to open houses, and all manner of advertising imploring her to pick the University of XYZ. Heck, she might even get a phone call from a recruiter. Canadian colleges and universities spend millions of dollars trying to attract students, because they are in the business of selling education. So what happens if you are interested in an apprenticeship? You might check out Ontario’s apprenticeship portal where the province tells you how to get started: “Apprentices are workers, so you will need to find an employer who will train you.” Good luck. A lot of young and not so young workers are trying to get into apprenticeships precisely because they cannot find an employer of any kind.
Apprenticeship training produces skills that can be of considerable value to people. Unlike a college and university education, we give them no way of buying it.
The real issue is how to effectively train for market demand at a reasonable price. Almost none (less than 5%), of students entering high school have any interest in an apprenticeship of any kind. Most students then choose a high school program geared toward academics. The 1/3 of students who then don’t go to university or college aren’t trained for work. They go and get entry jobs and a few years later figure out that they should retrain. They head into apprenticeship training but only a third of them finish. The average age of an apprentice in Canada is mid to late twenties not late teens to earlt twenties like Germany. Most trades in Canada don’t require an apprenticeship, particularly construction trades, which could be one of the contributing factors to the low completion rates.The Harris government removed the one mandatory technology credit students used to need to graduate high school, as well as removing the hands on technology programs that students used to get in grades 7 and 8.The government program to boost trades is a sham. Until they make more of the trades require mandatory aapprenticeship and start promoting the choice at an earlier age we’ll continue to educate ineffectively.
market demand??? I can tell you some facts from Germany, because i am from there.
normally dual training is a secondary education for children between 15!! and 18. This is a concept from the 19th century and don`t fit to today labor market conditions. The result is, that only 22% of the children are under 18, most apprentices today are between 20 and 24 at the beginning. In reality, it is a post secondary education.
only 22% of firms in Germany have apprenticeships, and the top ten jobs are something like retail, more low wage or part time jobs today and in the next automatisation round we don`t need so much people in that business. In important sectors the don`t have enough apprentices and the standards are often too low, especially in nursing!!!
we have a lack of apprenticeships in the sector:
nursing, metall, industrial work round about 14% in each sector — there are not enouph educational opportunities in Germany, in some rural regions it is really extreme, so people must become hairdresser or retail worker because there are not enough other qualifications.
there is not enough freedom of choice, because of that! the higher court in Germyn wrote some years ago, that the need more apprenticships, because there are not enough and this is in opposite to our constitution. 17% between 30 and 35 are without any qualification.
and the youth unemployment rate is higher in reality because of statitical tricks and the transitional system for students in a younger age who don`t find a training. When the officical number is 12, you have to add something like 7 or 8 or 9 points. Also the demographic situation in Germany is very comfortable, the smallest share of young people to integrate in the job market.
in many parts the system is not innovative enouph, f.eg. in Respiratory therapy. Germany don´t know an own qualification of that. People died in Germany, because the nurses don´t get an education how to work with this maschines. They only get crashcurses because there is no fix standard for such a qualification. In your countries it is a scientific based degree like diploma or bachelor. In Germany some people pushed the wrong button, because they didn`t know the maschines !! That is no joke. The dual system is not innovative enough to educate enough people. Because you at first must study nursing and than you can learn respiratory therapy, but it is not so a typical vocation, it is rare because there is also a lack of nurses.
it is not flexible enough, because when it is a a part of college education, than more people can choose it without a nursing education before — so you can get additional students in such an important sector.
Germany has got a very high share of long terme unemployment, every 2nd person who is unemployed is it long term.
i could imagine that one reason is the inflexibility of the dual training system. It is really difficult to get a new qualification or training and it is too overspecialised in really unimportant sectors.
overspecialised means, in qualifications, where it is not nessecary, they make it too narrow:
we have oberspecialisation and that is a problem in the job market, because it narrows the job opportunities i think!!!
f.eg. we have the apprenticeship:
not retail or seller, no:
they create the oberspecialised seller only for sausages and meat, seller specialised for bakeries, seller specialised for retail and everybody get an own programme, but it is not really important, what i am selling.
i don`t know, if you understand. Germany create too much apprenticeships, which is an overspecialisation and this could be a problem in the job market, because it sometimes makes it narrow. Remember: Educational systems based on a specific culture, it often doesn`t fit for other cpuntries, because there are cultural effects.
wasted 3 years apprenticeships, which no country need but germany have is:
Call center agent I think — 3 years apprenticeship, you don`t find that in other countries
removal man
room clearer
bus driver — why not shorter than 3 years? This is wasting life time, in danmark i can learn that in 3 to 6 month, this is more flexible.
it must be more flexible, often shorter or every part of an educational system must be flexible and not wasting time, when it is not nesessary.
when you want to find better and more flexible apprenticeships systems than you should look to other countries like norway, because there is not so many overspecialisation in not important jobs. And it is more freedom of choice, the right of access to higher education is a part of the norwegian system, not in Germany for many years!
i think, the German system is really unflexible. There is a big ! lack of opportunities of a second qualification or non consecutive qualifications. You have to stay in your business and job, it is really difficult to learn another subject — you have to stay in your vocation.
Imagine such case:
I make an apprenticeship in the field of administration.
than i have the idea to learn something about taxes, because there is a lack of such specialists.
in Germany people without a higschool certificate have it really difficult to learn an new subject. They regular are not allowed to go to university, it is also today difficult and in the past it was a horror! So the can not get a degree in taxes. The only access than is a further vocational education in taxes, BUT: with an apprenticeship in administration you are not allowed to learn something about taxes, because this is only a further education for people with an apprenticeship as a tax assistant….. other people with other apprenticeships like administration cannot study that, only when they work 9 years and 3 of this years they have to work in such a business, but this is difficult for them, because they are not tax assistants and nobody in this sector would hire them.
i hope you understand, what i want to tell you, i know my english is not so good:
the system is really unflexible. In norway or other countries it is more flexible and in the 21st century you need flexible systems!!! thit is important for everybody, that you can change qualifications easiliy!!!
market demand:
the top ten apprenticeships in Germany are something like retail services. In the next automatisation round this are the first jobs, which are leaving the modern times. You need flexible systems today, it must be more easy to get a new qualification or second qualification. It is really important, that everybody have access to different higher and further education, also in new businesses and non consecutive in new areas!!!!!
in the future this is a really important thing, but you don`t find that in Germany!!!!!!
when you want to look to a better secondary vocational education than t would prefer something like norway, because it is more flexible. The students need a highschool certificate, so that they are able to leave jobs easier!!! That is not the fact in Germany and so many young people are wasting their life time, because they have to go to school again to get such access to higher education and no opportunities to learn something!
Remember the different culture: job market in Germany is very closed! fluctuation in the job market is not so high, because some firms have their own apprentices, but other people have it sometimes not so easy to find a new job, because of this. In the long run the risk for later long term unemployment is higher in Germany.
one reason is, that it is not so easy to get a second or furhter education and a new qualifcation. I explained it with the tax assistant…. further education must be more flexible, e.g. when i have an adminstration job than it must be easy to learn something about taxes, or that it is easy to learn something about social work f.eg. or that you can learn a technician — in germany than you often need the “right apprenticeship” to make such a further education or you have to work many years, before you are allowed to learn such a new topic. Why not study directly the further education? In germany they often have to find a new apprenticeship on secondaryschool level and a new employer than, when they want to start a tax education — go back to zero, to a secondary school.
educational systems must be flexible, big opportunities to change qualifications if you want……
i don`t know many about canada and your educational system, i know that your highschools are really good, that you have many people with tertiary education. I don`t know, if a adminstration person would be allowed to study taxes as a further education, but i think so.
The german culture is different and this have an influence on the labor market and labor market conditions. It is difficult to transfer educational systems, because it is a culture based system!
in Germany vocational education is ruled by the chambers and that is a reason why further vocational education is only accessable with the right initial apprenticehip. these are the rules of the chambers.
i´m not sure, if such a system works in canada, because it is not so liberal. That is my own opinion, because i have negative experience in the german system. It was very hard for me to learn something new. That is the reason why i prefer flexible systems.
there are other countries with more flexible vocational education and also not so much youth unemployment like norway, danmark, finnland….. danmark also teach the children who don`t find an employer, so they get an qualification.
but don`t ignore: the modern job market don`t want too young apprentices, it is more a post secondary education today in many countries or they have combined it with a highschool ceritifcate, which is important, because than a system is more flexible and they have more opportunities later to learn something new
danmark is more school-based, when the children don`t find an employer. Also norway, so nobody have to be without qualification and education – this is better for the children in such a young age!!! Normally the german system was for younger people between 15 and 18, also officials think so today.
the market demand for such young children is really low. Employer today wants older apprentices.
But than it must be a tertiary education for adults! Not secondary school like in germany.
look to danmark, norway or something like this. I think it is better for children who don`t find an employer -also the further education is more flexible i think.
the german and the american culture is different:
i read a little bit in Karl Marx “the capital” about it:
the pioneers in north amerika, who came from europe in the past were happy, because in north america they could work in every sector without an apprenticeship “They could work as a craftsman, pitman, blacksmith, carpenter” this was a part of freedom for many people at this time.
at this time in Europe an apprenticeship was only accessible, if your relatives had the same qualification and it takes a long time of 7 years to become a journeyman, it was not everybody allowed to become a master craftsman. the chambers regulate everything in the business.
these are some cultural aspects, which have an influence on educational and training systems. Also in modern times
“””or is this just a way for businesses to pad profits by paying well-trained workers less than full rate for an extra year?”””
Yes, thet is really plausible! It is the same in some German sectors. Some apprenticeships must be shorter or they must qualify more, with general education to prepare for further education, than it is okay, when it takes a longer time.
Your chambers want the germany system, because they think it is the reason for a “strong economy”???
i don`t think so. Germany has one of the lowest growth rate world wide it ranks on place 156 from 166 countries.
the strong exports are not the result of innovation, more the result of shrinking wages and a growing low paid job sector with minijobs. look to the oecd data annual working hours per person. Germany has not so many working time like canada.
why your chambers don`t want the danish system ? I cannot understand what people think about this system.
why not sweden??? The long term unemployment in sweden is very low, because they have a good adult learning system.. Don`t look to the youth unemployment rate only, look also to long term unemployment rates, because this is also interesting for educational systems. How the adult education system works.
http://de.theglobaleconomy.com/Sweden/Long_term_unemployment/
http://de.theglobaleconomy.com/Germany/Long_term_unemployment/
and today in many federal states the only general education in apprenticeships is the rest of the general education in Hauptschul curriculum, this was create for the simple folk like an imperator told us:
little bit reading, writing, Religion!
the general education in today`s (modern) apprenticeship is only for the younger apprentices, in most of the cases it are only the following subjects, when i look in the internet in vocational schools:
German, Religion, Sports
why are they not allowed to choose english, maths, bio, get always a higschool certificate f.eg. as a regular case?
i was really angry as i have heard about systems like in most of the other countries, were young people always get a hs certificate, because than it is not wasting lifetime. Germany wasted lifetime. There were willful indirections in all parts of the educational system in Germany and this is wasting life time.
Today in modern times, there come a new phase of industrial revolution and automatisation, in such times it is important to have flexible systems.
a good system are additional systems like in other countries like schweden, us, great britain:
every qualification as a part of tne next qualification
secondary school certificate is the logical entry certifcate into tertiary education!
first diploma or associate — Credits additional to the next step
than Bachelor
it is important that there is no wasting of lifetime, because it makes a system flexible to learn new things, f.eg. when somebody is unemployed. lifetime is important, because the job chances are better, they have more time to collect specific job experience in new fields than.
than you must have a good adult education system ,also with distance learning, so that in rural regions people can learn something new. A flexible system.
the only bad thing in such systems like yours are the high fees — there you should learn from countries like danmark or sweden.
it was an german imperator or chancellor in the year 1799 who said that.
And today i take a look to the internet in vocational schools and the only general subjects i find are:
German, Religion and Sports —- what should i think about that? Sorry, that is so funny, i must laugh!
you are kidding what you wrote at this ths time. I did my schooling in Germany and we had
German, (reading/writing/spelling), Geography, Science, Physic, Sport, Housework, History, Math , Geometry,
painting, and I did my Bank Apprentice with Examen thru Chamber of Commerce, Business school and internal Bank examen.
So I do not know from which Germany you are talking. Maybe former East Germany.
Compare the knowledge with Canada I have to laugh. Without a calculator many can not even do the math in the head.
FYI: Religion is with the 12 years old free to attent or not.
My knowledge helped me a lot to deal with people which just have been trained to do one job. Often little or no lodig at all.
I had help from Logistic People with an Apprentice in Germany to start at PIA Air Freight etc. I knew they new the job and with the computers and books people can get more knowledge, but have to spend time to learn and not to play to much with thei I-phones. Beside Germany was always a strong Export Country and is between Nr 3-4 in the world. That is saying a lot.